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ElloElloEllo
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PostSubject: Game Balance   March 16th 2012, 22:04

Everthing concerning the balance of troll classes goes here.
This is to keep the suggestions clean from discussions about balanceing tweaks and spammers like me.
It would be nice if the previous posts on class balance could be moved here.
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PostSubject: Re: Game Balance   March 17th 2012, 01:16

Great idea. Not sure why I didn't do a thread like this myself.

My thoughts so far:

-Add more slowing effects, less stuns.

- Disallow Javelins and throwing axes to be carried along with bow, shield or any other item carried in the off-hand.

-Disallow grenades, molotov and poison gas to be carried at the same time. Limit accessories maybe to 2?

-Reduce Bow's range from 900 to 850.

- Reduce Longbow's range from 1050 to 1000.

- Reduce Swoop's stun duration from 2 to 1.5 seconds.


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PostSubject: Re: Game Balance   March 17th 2012, 11:35

Combat Leap stun is 1 sec, not 2.
And differences in 50 range does not really matter. I was about to change these ranges according to your suggestion, but then I noticed why I have done them this way: there is 150 range difference between different bows (750 composite, 900 simple, 1050 long). And the sniper still has 1200 Smile
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PostSubject: Re: Game Balance   March 17th 2012, 22:59

Today I experienced big bad bone club of thunder.

I facerolled my teammate, who is a good hunter.

40% chance for a 6 second stun. I still think JTr needs less stun. Can you lower it to 5 seconds?

But somehow not anyway. Because it DOES require an Inventor to invent the plans, so it's somehow rare.
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PostSubject: Re: Game Balance   March 22nd 2012, 04:21

Balance issues:

Add the same delay/forced deselect on molotov, poison gas, thrown weapons, power attacks as on the other inventor weapons.
From how i see it this should solve most of the problems, from aborting actions and still gaining power attack effect, curing, stacking AOE effects too fast, etc.

The spell Teleport is pretty powerful, for one the spell teleport with 30 seconds cooldown is very strong, i can remember when this spell had 120 seconds or more cooldown.

AND I have one request, if your removing the reveal effect form some spells/abilities please let warrior's leap as it is – it's a nice advantage and makes sense since he has to jump up.


Just read your update on version 5.1:

Letting the player choose which item he wants to pick is nice, especially since it will simplify the early game alot and speed up the game a bit. This solution is yet so simple but effective^^. But I have doubts about some choices.

I am really unsure about giving inventor a gun/shotgun from start, how about fire place kit, mining pick or repair hammer. ( - speaking of repair hammer, it's highly underpowered IMO (20 points each 10 seconds). How about making it usable in a more convenient way? Left click and cast autorepair over time on the target as long the effect is channeled uninterupted while draining mana – just like someone would repair a structure over time.)
The rebalance of mining pick is welcome, as long it still deals the same or more damage to rocks.

Giving the hunter a speed bonus of 40-60 ms with fur boots over any other troll is dangerous, this way most players can rush gathering resources from start and easily overpower the enemy withing the first days. How about giving him a normal bow with 15 arrows instead?

Land Mine – I didnt think about that in the previous post ^^ why have you added the ability to detonate it remotely? This way you can farm wood with 1 stone and 2 flints. It's just an assumption, but as far as my understanding of Warcraft and the survival lore goes, the world this is set in is more of a steampunk universe, excluding most electronics (other than crude power and engines) and electromagnetic waves.

Some other thought about net that crossed my mind how about making it a class craft for hunter – since it's needed for snare traps anyway- and limiting it to hunter and warrior (net lvl 3).

There are some pros and cons to excluding inventor and shaman from using net, so i am not really sure if this is a good idea.


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PostSubject: Re: Game Balance   March 22nd 2012, 08:36

I love simple solutions ♥

There was already casting time for most power attacks and throws, I even decreased it from 0.75 to 0.5. I gave same casting time to molotovs too.
But it doesn't solve any trigger problem - if it did, I wouldn't spend hours to find that solution with the deselect order Smile

I fully agree about the Teleport. But I don't want to increase the cooldown, because it would make the Arcanum unusable for too long time. The things I can do:
- increase casting time (but it is already 5 sec)
- add stun time / dizzy time after teleporting
- increase mana cost
- decrease casting range (but the player has no noticeable way to see the limits of his range)
- other ideas?

About warrior's leap - others requested the opposite... Lets keep it this way for now and see if it seems more realistic or not,

About Gun/Shotgun - I share the same doubts with you. I think every player I've asked about it does. But the guns have the same resource/gold price like weapons level 2 and spell books. I know it seems OP, but it isn't. Comparing Gun to Fireball, the gun has:
- 50% more range
- 50% better critical
- ~50% better cooldown
It doesn't require mana, but it spends resources per shot.
But Fireball has some specific advantages, being in the hands of Shaman:
- if cast after Voodoo Form, it does 50% more damage
- if the shaman has staff/wand/sacrificial dagger, he has +10% critical chance with all spells.
Seeing things in this light, the gun seems OP only considering attack range. Which is disturbing enough, but the Inventor has the role of damage dealer anyway. What do you think?

The Repair Hammer was already improved (see below in the same Change Log). Until now Inventor's Dismount was making it useless - that's why it's mana cost was greatly increased to nerf this and to make impossible moving an entire base just as easy as players do.

Mining Pick might be a good choice, but usually it is being crafted more for the warrior.

The Camp Fire might be useful, but it is easily crafted when needed and I have seen many times how experienced players dismount it right in the beginning to get the resources, so it isn't needed that much.

I have thought about the bow, but considering ammo cost, I should make it have only 5 arrows at start (or as a compromise - 10).
On the other hand, boots aren't imba at all - the player may craft them anyway and a Shaman can already have a speed bonus by Spell book of Haste.
To choose the boots over the bow, my argument was that they require a building and the bow can be easily crafted as a class crafting (but not that easily the arrows, I agree). Well, that argument wasn't followed for all starting items (inventor's Repair Hammer, warriors items), but it can be considered in moment of doubt.

About the Land Mine - before the change it still could be detonated remotely by forcing it to attack somebody. I agree about the RPG aspect, but to remove this I should fully rework it in some other way.
And the traps already attack anybody who comes across. The Mine wasn't doing it only because it is much more expensive and the player would want to save it for the enemy trolls.
As for using it it gather resources - I think this isn't very useful.
Using 2 mines you can usually take down 6-8 trees - and one mine price equals 3 wood, so there isn't great advantage.

Hmm, your maybe right about the net level. Some players complain that the combo net/grenades/molotov is too much overpowered. And on the other hand, the Inventor and the Shaman already have their ways to stun/slow the enemy.
As for the crafting - there is no free slot in Hunter's class crafting, but a great idea came to me: I'll remove the Sensor Trap from the game (it isn't being used for itself) and from traps recipes; they will require some other resource (or maybe just leave them be a little cheaper? What do you think?); the net will be crafted there instead; the Bow with 5 arrows will become starting item in the place of the Net.

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PostSubject: Re: Game Balance   March 22nd 2012, 09:03

Don‘t remove sensor traps please. I use them often.

[UPDATE]

Sensor traps are cheaper than normal traps. They do not unpack when stepped on and they generally provide good "defense". They allow you to prepare if you know someone is coming.

Now I am not sure if you like this, but I think there are 2 free slots in the Hunter's Tannery. Why not move Sensor trap to Hunter's tannery, but keep the special traps for hunter class crafting?

Regarding your new idea on starting items - I am believe it's a great idea. I just believe that a Hunter should not have Sabretooth fur bootz.

All fur items are lvl 1, but I would like to point out in older versions, fur items still had levels. The hunter can choose to start a with a lvl 2 spear, Bow with 5 arrows or Sabretooth fur boots.

Now, bow is actually only a hunter class item, but if it was a thing for all classes, we say it's level 2. Compared to Sabretooth boots, they are actually more "level 3" as they are the second best next to Bear Fur.

I think the boots should be Raccoon fur bootz.


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PostSubject: Re: Game Balance   March 22nd 2012, 09:13

But I need the slot. Otherwise the Hunter cannot have Net crafting.
There is a free slot in Warrior's crafting anyway...

I'll wait to see your arguments. I might still remove it from the traps recipes and make the traps cheaper. Now they cost 8-10 gold - a bit more than a mine, which should cost 6 (wrong in current version - 11).
The mine is more powerful, but it is useful only once.
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PostSubject: Re: Game Balance   March 22nd 2012, 16:38

Deselect:
I meant the forced deselect, until now i am missing that with molotovs.
I am not sure about poison gas, because i just realized i am always distraced looking at the animation of inventors grenade, which is really great. So I might have missed some of the deselect.

Teleport:
There are some ways to nerf teleport a bit.

-Teleporter sickness (unable to cast spells for 15-30 seconds /silence)

-Distortion (there's a chance of 5-10% for the user to tleport on a random spot in 500-1000 range to the target) - putting the caster into danger or making him stuck untill he can teleport again.

- setting the mana costs 80 - 100 points, this has some disadvantages since the caster can't really use teleport to run away from enemies anymore. Sure it was impossible to move out of combat before but you could get out of dangerous situations.

Warrior's Leap
I can understand the arguements against it , the reveal is a bit too far, but IMO it's the only way for a warrior to counter a hunter's hawk or shaman's vultures if they are behind a treeline/up a cliff - it's still hard to target them if you don't have a teammate playing synchrone to your action.
As far as other efffects go, i.e. poison gas defintely.
Btw, is it intended that poison gas stops animals from attacking, breaking their orders every second?


Inventor
Two things come to my mind comparing inventor's gun with other weapons (gun, since shotgun has a low range)
Compared to hunter's bow the ammunition is really easy to get and the damage dealt is a bit higher, not directly but the 10% 3x critical make the difference.
The arguements towards shamans fireball are similiar, also shaman is 20 ms slower than the inventor and animals can manage to come into attack range. The only difference is ghost form which has a 30 seconds cd.
Sure these points are considering kiting, while the inventor is not able to heal himself.

Under the line it seems the DD aspect balances the weaknesses inventor has in close combat over other classes.
The only thing i still find problematic is the easy way to get ammunition how about adding the Black Powder/Fuel to workshop and merging Craft Invention with Craft Engine as suggested by other players?
OR make the recipe for black powder stone/tinder and flint.
As balance to this restriction Blackpowder/Fuel could be stacked in a higher amount of 6 units (30 shots).

I havent seen the update on repair hammer, great minds shar similiar thoughs *cough*

Mining pick and warrior? Ok, I usually use dual blunt because of the increased attack speed and get pick as cheap stun/ anti - structure for shaman and inventor.

I do the same with campfire to be honest, if you gather resources at the early game its saving a slot of inventory this way. I noticed that giving players / newbes structures and advantages like action is hindring the gameplay since they only buy out basic resources without having a plan or ever starting to think about what they really need. So fire kit might even force them to go look for resouces first and not attack anything that moves.

Land Mines, oh never found out /read? that remote detonation ^^
I havent really tested the farming aspect, just remembered that i always had a nice openeing of some 4-6 trees if I had mined a choke point. Obviouslys i forgot to consider that i did not only plant 1 Land Mine.


Hunter:

5 arrows are ~ 220 damage, 10 ~440 dmg, so I'd preferre 10 tbh.

You may not forget to consider the advantaqe the heat gain through fur boots - maybe pig skin would be the alternative.

Hm, that arguement with Haste is right, 285 ms / ~16 mana.
Only difference is the heat gain during night. But other than that my doubts have been resolved.

I use sensor traps too, over any other trap tbh.
How about merging the sensor trap with the piked trap, similiar to the fishing pole /rotten meat recipe? Just remove the bones from spiked trap and/or add tinder. Or merge the bow recipes with arrow.

Btw, if the icon of fishing pole or the trap would be 50% diagonal both item icons it would make the dual use more obvious.








The small icon seems to work better.

Alternately you could merge the padded armor with padded gloves/boots in tannery. The ingredients can be still the same.
The tooltip could say "Pad Fur item with Linen"
- 1 Fur Boot, Gauntlet or Armor
- 1 Linen Cloth for Gauntlets or Boots and 2 for Fur Coat
note: why are they called Fur Gauntlets and not Fur Bracers/Sleeves/Gloves ?

IMPORTANT: I just remembered how much the game lags if a shaman spams "Extracts Seeds" in the inventory - ad a small cooldown to that ability please.

Also nets can be used by Rotten Trolls - maybe that should be prevented before it gets used for a Snarefest.




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PostSubject: Re: Game Balance   March 22nd 2012, 18:19

The icons seem magnificent!
Can you make them as .blp files, usable by Warcraft?

I have read everything, but no more energy to answer (today I did some good work on the map).
I'll make all craftings with 1 sec cooldown - it will leave more than enough time for the trigger and disallow the user to misclick twice. Or even 0.5 sec? I remember the merchant buttons a bit annoying (they have 1 sec).

"Btw, is it intended that poison gas stops animals from attacking, breaking their orders every second?"
It's not intended, but sounds right Razz

Teleport - 90 mana cost seems bad enough.
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PostSubject: Re: Game Balance   March 22nd 2012, 19:04

All in due time, Gadina. The guys over at bay12 aren't fixing more than 1-2 issues per day and both of them do it as a semiprofessinal hobby.

About the icon, I wanted to ask you for the wiki anyway. I already have found some packages from WOW, but i can't find an archive with the ones I need from WC3 - also I haven't touched ground on the custom stuff either. Maybe you have the resources from your map somewhere? It would be great if you could send them to me or host them via any OCH.
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PostSubject: Re: Game Balance   March 22nd 2012, 19:29

Just read the rework of the hunter's taming ability, I have 2 questions.

Does the hunter lose the taming pool upon death or will it stay like the containers/dummies for crafting/achievemnets?

How high is the starting pool of the ability? (50-100?) Personally I'd find it frustrating to find a piglet (bear cub) at the start of the game and then have to wait 1 (2) day(s) until i would be able to tame it if it's even still a cub then^^

I wanted to ask to improve the sneaking speed of hunter a notch but since you can now get boots right from the start it's obsolete.
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PostSubject: Re: Game Balance   March 22nd 2012, 19:51

All Warcraft icons can be extracted using Wc3 Image Extractor II (you can find it at the Hive) and the imported icons are listed at the JTR site in section About, with links Smile

Good questions.
The taming pool is in the Hunter Crafting dummy unit, so it lasts as long the hunter is in the game.

Starting pool is 50 - just for a piglet or fawn, but not enough for a bear cub (should I make it 100? How do you think?)

The hunter is the fastest troll anyway Smile
With the speed and survival bonus of those boots he becomes a good scout who could safely wander day and night (if he is experienced enough) and traverse the map in 1-2 days.
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PostSubject: Re: Game Balance   March 22nd 2012, 20:18

50 is perfect, otherwise you could get 2 fawns at gamestart and:


Hunter the fastest unit in game? Well, you dont have to outrun the enraged enemy warrior, just run faster than your fellow shaman.
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PostSubject: Re: Game Balance   March 22nd 2012, 20:55

The permanent fastest troll is the Hunter.

The temporary fastest troll is the Warrior.

But Warriors are way more energy dependant than anyone else. Just try Thunder Clubs. -40 energy.

Also now that I think about it, maybe it should not be fur boots, but Crab Chitin boots?

And dear me, I think I am loosing my grip on the update. It's too damn big for my eyes!

(Does anyone like my new avatar btw? Chris Metzen sure has drawing skills Very Happy)

I am gonna see if I can get more players attracted here. There's alot of motivated JTR players on bnet US EAST wc3.
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PostSubject: My thoughts on the 5.1 changes   March 23rd 2012, 14:50

Warrior

- warrior leap does not need changing. Invisibility skills are strong enough as they are , removing detection from warrior will make him unable to deal with shamans , hunters and ghostly masks(inventor does not have detection, but he has aoe dmg)

-Warriors role in the tribe is working and fighting(mainly just tanking).Hes especially good at working.I've noticed that making towers to defend is only viable if there is a warrior working(cutting trees), not to mention that all buildings get made much faster with a warrior in the team.So because warrior is a "worker", he should have the "craft repair hammer" ability.Note-mining pick is never used by warrior, warriors time is best spent cutting trees.Other classes can go mining,especially inventor.Repair hammer needs a serious upgrade.



Hunter

-Hunters role is that of a scout, gatherer, and assassin

-Note that hunter energy is 200 (lowest of all trolls)

- There is a suggestion that says that hunter is too fast. Hunter is supposed to be fast.

-Hunter does not have the durability of the warrior, and he does not do as much dmg as the inventor(not even close), and his animals are not as strong as rotten animals.Hunter will lose a fight vs a warrior or inventor every time.BUT hunter has speed and invisibility.He doesn't have to fight

-the kiting strategy is a hunter trademark and can only be done with a hawk spotter. I noticed that the hawks vision has been reduced, and as a hunter player myself i feel this was unnecessary.I mean come on, was hawk that big of a threat to balance that it needed to be nerfed? He only has 40 60 80 100 hp. he dies in 1 power hit ffs.hawk should have more vision then a vulture or a jungle bird.i've lost hawk so many times to a warriors throwing axe or a inventors gun, and now its EVEN HARDER to keep hawk alive?

-Hunter class crafting net.Yes,good idea, it makes sense.

-my thoughts on sensor traps.I never use them,they are only useful to making other traps(which i use a lot) but not sensor traps. For vision, a watch tower , or even a stockage box is much better.

-keep hunter as it is as far as taming goes, with the recent nerfs to animal mana (most notably old bear mana) its balanced. I see the big poster about the 2 antelopes gathering all resources.Well to be honest it only takes 1 antelope to gather all resources, but this is very taxing for the players attention.However as far as gathering goes, a tribe of 3 trolls will gather all the surrounding resources anyway, add the hawk to that and antelope wont do much.And gathering in the enemy territory is not very wise 1 Its dangerous and 2 there aren't that many resources-its already gathered.
Antelopes best use is to share control to your warrior and use it to carry wood from warrior to the base, and getting food to the warrior, so that he won't stop cutting, same with miners.

Inventor

- adding lvl 3 to net , so that inventor and shaman cannot use it.Well, net is irrelevant for shaman. The only debatable thing about net is the net+ molotov combination. As far as i see it there are 2 ways of looking at this
1 Net + molotov will do a lot of dmg, even more so if the target is not wearing armor, and it can potentialy kill the enemy. Still this can be countered by using a shield, or by wearing armor. I for one don't think this is overpowered, i mean you could say the same about warrior dual wield -its overpowered cuz he attacks too fast, or shaman book of fire and lightning , it does too much dmg.
2 Net usualy has this effect, you get neted and most likely you are going to die.Net has and advantage (he stops the enemy) and a disadvantage ( you lose a slot that could be used for a weapon). And since inventor is a damage dealer, most of the time inventors prefer to not use net just so they can carry a mask or some potions
Botom line , imo net+ molotov is not OP. And i'm not even an inventor fan, i don't even like playing inventor, i'm being realistic. When i play hunter or warrior, i can usualy counter net molotov by wearing a shield and/or armor.Or just ambush the inventor and kill him fast. OFC sometimes i die
AND if inventor cannot use net, items like chainsaw and flamethrower wont be used at all Sad

-As a balance issue, i feel that inventors should craft molotoves in the workshop.this measure is so that this will slow down molotov production and discourage early molotov grenades rushes.Also make casting molotoves like grenades(channeling) and the same animation

-THE FLAMETHROWER. The flamethrower is still unused. This is because its role overlaps with that of the molotov.Also molotoves can be used while using a weapon..the sniper , which makes it for a far better build for inventor. Inventors using flamethrower don't do enough dmg(to say the least) and they just die.Plus flamethrowers area of effect compared to that of the molotov is meager.
SO how to make the flamethrower a usable weapon
- increasing its dmg will make it useable,with the current area of attack, and i mean a LOT more dmg(150 instant dmg and 50 burning dmg, and 200 critical..only for instant dmg,dot remains the same),This dmg can be reduced by wearing armor.Add a cool down of 10 sec. And i'm still not convinced its enough dmg

-inventor starting with a gun is seriously overpowered. You should see what inventors can do, before giving inventor a serious buff like that.I mean a gun in day 1 is unthinkable.Inventors can already fast craft the gun
armory-forge-dissasemble armory-bronze bar-workshop-gun. All this with 4 stones 5 flints and 4 wood.Do this near an oil geyser for oil
Inventors don't need the gun in day 1, thats op. Inventors can use the dissasemble ability to recycle resources,thats enough of an advantage(plus the class crafting of grenades as day 1 weapons)

Shaman

-Shamans role is that of support caster, and he also resurrects the dead.

-Teleport spell was a bit tricky in the previous versions where the map could not be revealed, but now that the map can be revealed , it does not require any nerfing. Not that it needed nerfing to begin with. The 4 (or is it 3 sec?) chaneling time was enough time for the enemy to stun him and kill him. Its like the staff of teleportation (wc3) or the town portal in dota, and that was not nerfed there, why would it be nerfed in JTR?, to become an absolutely useless spell?
I have to admit its a bit frustrating when a shaman escapes from you like this, but hey, its up to you to find him, or kill him faster next time.

- the master of puppets spell is overpowered..but its already been discussed

-1 Rotten trolls are very weak fighters, even with weapons or net, i really don't see why some ppl hate them , i never ever resurrect trolls, its not worth the 12 scriptures for 200 hp, albeit the 2 inventory slots. perhaps if they only cost 6 scriptures, then they would be worth resurrecting, and even then just for cutting trees
2 lately, after playing shaman extensively, I've concluded that rotten bears are overpowered,its the same story as the hunters bears. Bears need to be harder to resurrect- more scriptures 9 is not enough, it needs to be 12 scriptures, or even 15.
3 rotten alligators are overrated. Due to their slow movement speed and, they are not very good, therefore they could cost fewer scriptures to resurrect, maybe 6 , and still i wouldn't waste scriptures on them. Same with hunter alligators, i would just use the eggs for masks , as alligators are overrated. They could be used for guarding the base, and that's about it.

-spells balance
1 Some spells are actually not worth upgrading to lvl 2 : slow -->hex not worth it, however if hex had a critical attack of slow,instead of stun(stun is like hex anyway) then it would be worth it imo.
:regeneration-healing spray, not worth upgrading because it becomes a channeling spell.Channeling in a fight is a bad idea as it incapacitates your shaman, in this regard regeneration is much better as its cast and run.IMO healing spray could be replaced with healing wave(healing wave is a troll spell in wc lore)

additional tweaks

-Mining pick does the same dmg as a big bad bone club.So a solution to balancing mining pick would be: change the dmg done to trolls to that of a bone club lvl1.That way, if inventor wants to use a melee weapon , he will choose to go for the bone club lvl2(as it is , mining pick is universally chosen over all clubs).Dmg to structures remains the same.

-JTTR Wikipedia -brilliant, although it would require a lot of work

-controlling animals around enemy towers is a nightmare. As towers have that 1-1 damage, which is actually harmless, BUT it aggravates animals, as animals automatically retaliate to an attack, not even hold position works. D:


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PostSubject: Re: Game Balance   March 23rd 2012, 16:31

This is why an active community is so important.

Your playing style is quite different from mine and it's good this way. That keeps the map interesting and helps keeping a blance to the gameplay.

Honestly, I rarely cut trees with warrior, only if i'd really need them. If someone would order me to cut all the trees I possibly would cut them - get a rotten troll and let it be your lumberjack.
I see it similiar about the leap, but a little bit less area wouldn't hurt.


I don't see how the slightly reduced vision range of hawk makes it harder to keep it alive? The area of vision as really huge with a high level hawk, especially the area where you could see invisible units.
Sensor traps are a very important part of how I play hunter, ofc they don't make much sense if you put them in your base, but if you put 2 at each chokepoint/passage to your area, you at least know that there's someone comming even if he's invisible.
OH, about the stockage box, I thought it vision was reduced along with the main structures? Well if not, it should have been reduced.

About pets:
Rotten animals do not have the ability to reproduce, which letz hunter get a bigger army if he's playing his cards right.

The PROBLEM is that you can store the voodoo scriptures over time and then as soon you have finished an offensive equip with shaman can go around and start raising an army.
Which is not possible as hunter, who needs time to tame/raise enough animals. Maybe there should be a pool for rotten animals like hunter's taming pool too.

And the level 2 and 3 tiers of puppetmaster are imbalaced, Luckily a bit difficult to reach, but still manageable. Maybe just 20% would be enough.

Quote :
Antelopes best use is to share control to your warrior and use it to carry wood from warrior to the base, and getting food to the warrior, so that he won't stop cutting, same with miners.
I see you do alot of warrior lumber cutting^^


About the molotov, it is very powerful, especially bc it can be made in the inventory. The combination of net, molotov, flamethrower, mining pick(or grenades), poison gas deals about 550 damage on area within 10 seconds. But this is only achievable by a very skilled player, with the upcoming tweaks , especially with net we 'll have to see if this is still so powerful.
Hm, I may be wrong but shield does not cancel AOE as far as i know, only armor reduces the damage.
The flamethrower is powerful enough as it currently is, especially if you can still use net as inventor. 150 instant and 50 crit is just lunatic - that is really to strong for PvP - maybe it's ok for PvT? (player versus tree)
I had my doubts about the gun too, but then Gadina convinced me that it is actually balanced if you consider the other classes abilities.


The shaman's spells are good as they are, hex is great to disable an enemy for a few seconds and mass heal is just great to heal your army of undead and your remaining teammates.
One of the things so great about Jungle Trolls is that all spells work the same on enemies as on allies and that the player cant just simply heal up during the fight.
Adding healing wave instead of the channeled mass heal would change that. Just equip your teammates with potions if you need healing during combat or stay back with the shaman, they aren't front line fighters anyway.
The nerf on shaman's teleport is ok, it was to balance it a bit because you can go anywhere on the map very quick - doing quests , or even start a guerillia attack on the enemy multiple times and then savely teleport back.

The amount of scriptures for animals is fine, the damage output by alligators is much higher, even if you consider the HP of bears, 8 for bear and 9 for alligator is just right IMO. Mass Haste and the ability to walk over water balance the temporary lazyness.


About the wikia, you are welcome to contribute any time http://jungletrolls.wikia.com

Yes, the towers are a bit annoying, you have to order your pets to attack something directly to stop them from going for that tower.


Last edited by ElloElloEllo on March 23rd 2012, 18:04; edited 4 times in total
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